Community discussion

Speedrun?

Started by JT! on 12 January 2009 • 19,735 views

52 posts

#8925120 April 2021

I've expected this version to play out about 1/6 slower than the Aladdin run (since I played on an European console in 50Hz), but it managed to be even slower than that. Seems strange - I'm pretty sure that would be a sub-39 run on the Aladdin version.

One observation I had... I think that the game takes the console region into account when calculating the day/night cycle duration? Kinda seemed like it, but not sure. Well, keep in mind that you wait about another half a second on every screen transition in that version. (Did they add a lot more graphics compression just for that version, or what?) I suspect what's going on with the passage of time is that the day timer keeps running during the longer loading time during which you can't make progress. Just to satisfy some curiosity, I tested on emulator to try finding the minimum time it took for each time of day to change, and I came up with 40960 frames for midday, 10240 frames for dusk, 6400 frames for midnight, and 7936 frames for dawn, for a total of 65536, the 16-bit limit. I also notice that the helping hand in Dizzy's house disappears for another 417 frames every 8192 frames of idleness!
I think that skipping Dozy in itself saves barely any time, and it's not worth it either (at least with my route) It would be worth it on a route that brings Dora down on your first pass!

I don't know if you've seen my videos of speedrunning Fantastic Dizzy for CD32 at less than the recorded speed, but I remember one of the funnier little timesavers in the Genesis and Amiga versions is that on the shopkeeper and on Grand Dizzy's cauldron, standing on one particular pixel will make the game skip the throwing animations when you hand over the items. That might not help with buying the bean in real time with the time you might spend lining Dizzy up, but maybe it could pay off with multiple medicine ingredients on the cauldron.

#8925220 April 2021

Well, keep in mind that you wait about another half a second on every screen transition in that version. I wasn't sure if that'd add up, but now that I've done the math I guess it's entirely possible. It just goes to show that in a spedrun setting, even the little time losses matter. I suspect what's going on with the passage of time is that the day timer keeps running during the longer loading time during which you can't make progress. Ah yes, that'd be a simple and quite reasonable explanation. Thanks! Not that it affects the gameplay in any way, it's just something that stood out to me. I don't know if you've seen my videos of speedrunning Fantastic Dizzy for CD32 at less than the recorded speed, but I remember one of the funnier little timesavers in the Genesis and Amiga versions is that on the shopkeeper and on Grand Dizzy's cauldron, standing on one particular pixel will make the game skip the throwing animations when you hand over the items. That might not help with buying the bean in real time with the time you might spend lining Dizzy up, but maybe it could pay off with multiple medicine ingredients on the cauldron. I haven't had the chance to watch those yet... to be honest, I haven't actually watched any of the Dizzy speedruns at this point, I just like to figure out on my own first, as much as possible. Admittedly, I've skimmed through that Russian speedrun just to see how come it's so fast... and I still don't know, but it seems to be legit at first glance.
Never heard of this glitch - sound fun and something actually worth trying. Maybe not really trying to be pixel perfect, but trying to get more or less in the right spot and crossing your fingers, maybe you'll get lucky, and in the worst scenario you'll be pretty much even. I suppose with enough practice that should be a viable option.

#892641 May 2021

I said I wouldn't do it, but... someone else has posted a run on speedruns.com from the Genesis version, so did I have a choice? Of course I had to beat it.

Even though I died once (I hate the city tunnels in this version!!!) and I've lost time here and there (the clouds near Zaks' castle, argh!), the final time was much faster than anticipated - 39:05. I really don't know how did I manage to do that. My test times on emulator, and the other run I did today were in the 40:30-41:00 range.
https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/y2xd14wm

The route is pretty much the same as in my Red versions speedruns. The biggest change (aside from lack of the Dizzy Down the Rapids minigame) is that in the NES versions I've explored the Carber Bay for stars right after obtaining cymbals, but now I did it after exchanging it for a rug. I've then used the mine cart exit to warp to the mine, saving myself some backtracking.
I'm also visiting Denzil's hut only once to save a few seconds (how couldn't I think of this before?), and I've took a long way round to Daisy's house, since it's not possible to drop down from Denzil's floor like in the NES Red versions.

I really wished for a deathless run, but the time is so good that I'm satisfied with it overall. It will have to do for now, I don't want to visit Keldor ever again. :tongue:

#892684 May 2021

Wow, so now you've got three world records, and Frankoko has brought the first version's time down to well under an hour!
Also - sorry for the offtopic, but I wanted to thank you for your continued contribution, research and general oversight on The Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy (and other NES Codemasters games) pages on TCRF. As someone who grew up playing these and can be considered a Codemasters fanboy to an extent, it's really great to see. Especially since I'm just a gamer and my technical knowledge is very limited. These games never really got the attention they deserved, but that's kinda understandable since they lacked Nintendo licence. No problem! I doubt I would have been so interested in contributing if you hadn't found so much good information already. Like how did you discover that writing to 300 changes the music track when that appears to contain AB all the time?

I may have a few more minor discoveries in those Codemasters games to edit in this month... And maybe you can help with something for prerelease pages. I noticed that some versions of an early Game Genie advertisement contain clips of early builds of BigNose the Caveman and The Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy with a bunch of little differences visible (besides what's supposed to have been done with a cheat code). I also found a French version with slightly different clips from those same game versions as well as an Ultimate Stuntman clip that doesn't have the proper HUD for a boss fight at least, and it doesn't have any messages laid on top of those clips. But I don't know if there are higher-quality recordings of those ads to download anywhere--I couldn't even find one on that watermarked ina.fr site--that would help with comparing the graphics. I suspect Dizzy had a different face in that version, but it's hard to tell when the frames are blurry or blended with one another. (It's also amusing how the "Over 25 million lives will be saved" print ad contains crude drawings of the BigNose and Dizzy clips rather than screenshots.)

#892694 May 2021

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89268"]

Wow, so now you’ve got three world records, and Frankoko has brought the first version’s time down to well under an hour!

[/quote]

Yeah... I haven't delved that much into the Blue revision yet, but knowing how slow Dizzy walks in this version a sub-hour time sounds absolutely insane.

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89268"]

No problem! I doubt I would have been so interested in contributing if you hadn’t found so much good information already. Like how did you discover that writing to 300 changes the music track when that appears to contain AB all the time?

[/quote]

Well... I was bored the other day and I was just filling the RAM with random values, and seeing what happens. :tongue: This is how I found the "facial expression" memory address as well.

Truth be told, much of the info I've incorporated into the TCRF page are just things I've read on various forums through the years. Thankfully it's (hopefully) all preserved now on TCRF.

As for the videos - sorry, I'm afraid I can't help you. These videos are super interesting, but I'm actually seeing them for the first time! All I know is that there definitely exists a Big Nose the Caveman NES proto cartridge (or a rare early release), but I think it isn't dumped yet. I remember reading about it on some site quite a while ago (a wiki of some sort), but I can't find it unfortunately. I don't think that any screenshots were posted anyway, but a photo of the cart itself was provided if I recall correctly.

//edit: I've found the photos:
https://wiki.no-intro.org/index.php?title=File:NES-Unl-Big_Nose_the_Caveman-1990-cart_front.jpg
https://wiki.no-intro.org/index.php?title=File:NES-Unl-Big_Nose_the_Caveman-1990-cart_back.jpg
https://wiki.no-intro.org/index.php?title=File:NES-Unl-Big_Nose_the_Caveman-1990-screenshot_1.jpg
https://wiki.no-intro.org/index.php?title=File:NES-Unl-Big_Nose_the_Caveman-1990-screenshot_2.jpg
https://wiki.no-intro.org/index.php?title=File:NES-Unl-Big_Nose_the_Caveman-1990-screenshot_3.jpg
It was mentioned here: https://wiki.no-intro.org/index.php?title=Nintendo_-_Nintendo_Entertainment_System_USA_undumped#USA_undumped_.28unlicensed.29

#8929727 May 2021

One thing I'd been doing in casual runs that I spotted both Frankoko and Project doing was getting into the town castle at the earliest opportunity, then leaving the bridge kit in the middle of town to pick up from the other side later. Of course, the cool thing about the "Blue" version at that point is that you could play the river game after raiding the pirate ship as a little shortcut to bring the dynamite to the mine in the other direction.

Now I forget which versions I observed this in, but I believe in at least some of them, when you win the archery game, Dizzy may proceed into the castle a little sooner if you hold the duck button before you lose control of Dizzy. That's got to be worth testing!

The other possible small timesaver that jumped out at me in your "Red version" runs was that after you put out the fireplace in Zaks' castle, you may want to grab the star in the bottom-right before climbing up, because when you tumble down from up there, you land farther from the stairs than when you first jump onto them.

Oh yeah, and if anyone's running the Sega 8-bit versions, it might be worth keeping a savestate at Zaks' tower to practice climbing it safely, because those versions suddenly get mean about it by not retaining Dizzy's progress after dying, meaning you must climb the entire tower without taking a full meter of damage, which is not easy when a single ball can bounce through Dizzy repeatedly! Perhaps it's only worth starting the climb after emptying out the damage meter.

#8929827 May 2021

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89297"]

One thing I’d been doing in casual runs that I spotted both Frankoko and Project [...]

[/quote]

Interesting! That's what I like about open-ended games - so many possible solutions. Although I still think my route might be better, at least as far as the NES Red and Sega MD/Genesis versions are concerned.

Yeah, I've gotten several notifications now about Project beating my time in the Genesis version leaderboard, so obviously I had to pick up the gauntlet. :tongue: Had tons of luck today and I've managed to get an incredible time of 37:29 - over a minute faster than Project's record!
https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/z1rpnv7m
The route is pretty much the same as before with basically one big difference - after the Bubble Dizzy minigame, I fixed the mine lift machine so that I could use the warp after grabbing the match to thaw Denzil. All things considered it's not a huge timesave, but it's always something. Other than that, it just boils down to much better and more thought-out execution compared to my previous run - still not perfect though. Got a lot better at the clouds section, but still managed to screw it up. Also, this is my first (and so far only) time beating this game with no deaths!

By the way, thanks for the tip about skipping the animation when making Grand Dizzy's medicine. Turns out that if you hold the right arrow when entering his hut, you have a pretty decent chance of stopping on the correct pixel! I'm not sure how big the actual "window" for this trick to work is, but it can be done (at least I can do it, as evidenced by the linked video :tongue: ). I couldn't find a working setup for the shopkeeper though.

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89297"]

The other possible small timesaver that jumped out at me in your “Red version” runs [...]

[/quote]

Yeah, my Red version speedrun definitely needs redoing - I've found quite a few things to improve. I might get to that someday... although I'm thinking about doing a DOS version speedrun, just out of pure curiousity..

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89297"]

Oh yeah, and if anyone’s running the Sega 8-bit versions, [...]

[/quote]

Sounds like another good reason not to play this version. :tongue:

#8930027 May 2021

[quote data-userid="2495" data-postid="89298"]

Sounds like another good reason not to play this version. :tongue:

[/quote]

Heh, I found its difficulty pretty modest otherwise, although I never cared for how the Dizzy the Adventurer physics feel in that game world.

#893121 June 2021

Just for completeness sake, here's the DOS version speedrun (36:34): https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/z0rl878z

Not perfect but quite decent, no deaths. For whatever reason this version doesn't have underwater physics, which meant I had to change my route slightly. It also seems to run a tad faster than on Sega, and the gravity seems a little stronger? Overall, a bit clunky port in my opinion (the framerate is anything but silky smooth), but not terrible.

It might be interesting to note that the Grand Dizzy's cauldron animation skip trick still exists in this version and the "hold right" setup works, but it seems less reliable. I did it in one of my earlier attempts, but not in the record run. Not that I did a lot of practice on this port anyway.

#8946722 July 2021

Congratulations on knocking down the second Nintendo version's world record multiple times this month, Yojo! And with a new route now!

I was also impressed by some of ThrillHouse's new shortcuts in the first version, like how did he manage to keep the butterfly effect all the way to the dragon with Slow Dizzy? I think he's taking a break from the game for a few months, but he sounded eager to try the more efficient rope swing on the pirate ship I mentioned next time.

Now I'm wondering how I could go about recording a speedrun of the Game Gear version someday. The site rules only mentioned needing an emulator with "proper timing", so does it matter that most emulators don't have an option to emulate the picture compression you get on "SMS-GG" games with their built-in "Master Gear Adaptors"? And do you think I need to do anything to prove I never abused an emulator feature to save time?

#8946823 July 2021

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89467"]

Congratulations on knocking down the second Nintendo version’s world record multiple times this month, Yojo! And with a new route now!

[/quote]

Thanks! There's still more to come. I haven't posted my recent runs here because they're still quite bad, despite the record pace. I'm meaning to get at least sub-34. With that said, I might not be the record holder for long anyway - Dizzy9 says he's considering grinding the dragon egg skip for a sub-32 time.

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89467"]

Now I’m wondering how I could go about recording a speedrun of the Game Gear version someday. The site rules only mentioned needing an emulator with “proper timing”, so does it matter that most emulators don’t have an option to emulate the picture compression you get on “SMS-GG” games with their built-in “Master Gear Adaptors”? And do you think I need to do anything to prove I never abused an emulator feature to save time?

[/quote]

IMHO as long as the emulator runs don't look as if they've been tampered with in an obvious way, I'm giving them a benefit of a doubt. As long as the run is clearly labeled, it's fine. Speedrun site rules suggest recording whole emulator window (instead of just gameplay), but it doesn't seem like anybody conforms to this.

As for the GG/SMS issue... well, I don't know. I'm not really familiar with these versions, and I haven't played around with Game Gear too much. From my brief research, it looks like GG and SMS version use the exact same ROM (at least I could find any separate GG ROM). The emulator I use (KEGA Fusion) doesn't seem to be able to run the GG version - no matter what I do, it treats it as a SMS game. The biggest issue I see is that the SMS version is supposed to be played in 50FPS (it hasn't been released in NTSC regions - correct me if I'm wrong), while the Game Gear I _assume_ runs in 60FPS by default. Having the correct speed set should be taken into consideration.

#8946923 July 2021

Yeah, the only differences I know of between the two are that the Game Gear version's sky never darkens, and its music sounds optimized for 60 FPS, whereas the Master System's music only sounds right at 50 FPS--but then the gameplay is still slower, and I don't know if I have the patience for that. :tongue: The one emulator I experienced that reproduced the screen downscaling effect was some in-browser emulator on a high score competition site... but that topic mentions MAME having it, so maybe that was the one!

I just like how you're able to record the Nintendo Entertainment System's entire output, showing more of those lines that stretch toward three corners of the status bar! And there's a line of lighter color along the left edge, but even when the background is black, it gets darkened by the bottom of the story scroll.

#8947023 July 2021

Ah-ha, so the GG version literally just downscales the SMS output to the lower resolution? Interesting, I've never realised that - I have always assumed that there has to be a dedicated GG video mode. I can only imagine it must have been an absolute pain to play on that tiny and blurry Game Gear LCD screen!

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89469"]

I just like how you’re able to record the Nintendo Entertainment System’s entire output, showing more of those lines that stretch toward three corners of the status bar! And there’s a line of lighter color along the left edge, but even when the background is black, it gets darkened by the bottom of the story scroll.

[/quote]

The grey line on the left side of the screen seems to be an NES quirk - interestingly, it can be seen in some of the AVGN's early videos. I'm not sure what's that about, I don't think any other consoles that I have show this line. Good catch with that story scroll screen - haven't noticed that, the line is far into the overscan area on my CRT TV, so I didn't see it.

As for the glitching around the statusbar area, it should be noted that I'm playing on a flashcart, and its implementation of the mapper 071 might or might not be perfect. I don't have a real cart to compare (from Codemasters library I only happen to own Quattro Adventure, and even then it's an NTSC-U cart... while I only own NTSC-J Famicom and PAL NES), but from what I've seen these glitches more or less line up with the real cart.

#8947123 July 2021

Yep, there weren't too many that downscaled a Master System picture instead of making an actual cropped-screen Game Gear ROM, but both Dizzy games did it! Probably because it would have been more work to rearrange all the text displays to fit in the smaller resolution.

I'm surprised I haven't spotted any clue to the reason for the light line on the left on NESDev yet...

#8947726 July 2021

Regarding your previous question:

[quote data-userid="348" data-postid="89467"]

The site rules only mentioned needing an emulator with “proper timing”, so does it matter that most emulators don’t have an option to emulate the picture compression you get on “SMS-GG” games with their built-in “Master Gear Adaptors”?

[/quote]

I have checked the SMS-GG list you've linked and it seems like there's a "precedent" already on speedrun site: https://www.speedrun.com/coigg

It's played just like a standard SMS game, no downscaling (which seems reasonable). To be honest, seeing as this game was released on SMS in NTSC regions, I'm not even sure what's the point? I'd think this makes the GG and SMS versions exactly the same.

This also makes me wonder if the SMS and GG categories in Fantastic Dizzy should be merged (since the same ROM is used), but that would make the SMS version pretty much irrelevant, since it's supposed to be running in 50FPS (hence it'll be slower by definition). Or maybe just be real and allow playing SMS version @ 60FPS. Hmmm, no idea.

#8948530 July 2021

Finally got some better luck today, and did two runs that seem decent enough, at least for now. Time to take a long awaited break from this game. :P

Aladdin version done in 33m 50s https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/zp8q9w8y

European version done in 42m 24s https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/y273pg6z

No new strats for the Aladdin revision - just a bit better played. As for the EU, I've finally done a run that uses the new route (without waking up Dozy), and along with other improvements it gave a whopping 6m 26s timesave. Not bad! Still, I've played really safe, so these runs still could use some improvement.

#894902 August 2021

Those runs look really nice! I think I'm going to need a lot more practice before I'm able to even finish a speedrun, but I'll keep watching whatever you put out to help me learn the routes.

#895084 August 2021

[quote data-userid="2495" data-postid="89485"]

Finally got some better luck today, and did two runs that seem decent enough, at least for now. Time to take a long awaited break from this game. :P

Aladdin version done in 33m 50s https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/zp8q9w8y

European version done in 42m 24s https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/y273pg6z

[/quote]

Congrats on the new record. The more you lower the time the more I think I could grind my own speedrun.

I havent seriously considered it before because Im using the butterfly glitch to skip saving Grand Dizzy. Since the time it saved over your speedruns was so big, If I were to do that it would force other speedrunners to use it too...but it aint fun to grind for an RNG. This could discourage other players from trying. If you can lower your time even more, that would be great :)

Anyway, I watched your latest effort and noticed that you jump over the spider webs in Zaks castle.

There is no need for it, a glitch allows you to just walk over them after jumping off a rope due to a coding oversight.

You'll need to jump over it on your way out, yes...but with some good timing you can also jump over the fruit, saving time on eating.

[attach]402[/attach]

#895094 August 2021

[quote data-userid="2495" data-postid="89485"]

Finally got some better luck today, and did two runs that seem decent enough, at least for now. Time to take a long awaited break from this game. :P

Aladdin version done in 33m 50s https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/zp8q9w8y

European version done in 42m 24s https://www.speedrun.com/the_fantastic_adventures_of_dizzy/run/y273pg6z

[/quote]

Congrats on the new record. The more you lower the time the more I think I could grind my own speedrun.

Anyway, I watched your latest effort and noticed that you jump over the spider webs in Zaks castle.

There is no need for it, a glitch allows you to just walk over them after jumping off a rope due to a coding oversight.

[attach]402[/attach]

You'll need to jump over it on your way out, yes...but with some good timing you can also jump over the fruit, saving time on eating.

#895105 August 2021

[quote data-userid="178" data-postid="89509"]

Since the time it saved over your speedruns was so big, If I were to do that it would force other speedrunners to use it too…but it aint fun to grind for an RNG. This could discourage other players from trying. If you can lower your time even more, that would be great

[/quote]

Well, look at it this way - the Blue version record run is already doing it. ;) Granted, in the Blue version you can pass the dragon anyway so it's far less important and "run-killery" than in Red version, but still. But I do get your point, I'm not going to grind this skip in the Red version myself, too much hassle.

[quote data-userid="178" data-postid="89509"]

Anyway, I watched your latest effort and noticed that you jump over the spider webs in Zaks castle.

There is no need for it, a glitch allows you to just walk over them after jumping off a rope due to a coding oversight.

[/quote]

Nice, didn't know that! Although the first jump is the easier one anyway, so it's not as helpful as it sounds. Still - a bit swag.